I (and probably several other) members of the board will be on this thread to answer any questions.
Van Lindberg
Chairman, Python Software Foundation
Edit: I have been asked what sort of statements would be helpful. I can't tell you exactly what to say - it needs to be your statement, but we need to make it clear that when someone says "Python" in relation to software, or a "Python server," or with "Python experience," they are referring to Python-the-language.
We also want people to testify to their understanding that Python is distributed by the Python Software Foundation.
These are not exactly the same, but this gives a flavor of some of the things that can be helpful:
In case anyone wants to know, it is CTM Application No. 10848208 PYTHON & Device in the name of POBox Hosting
Edit 2: I have already received a book written in Spain, job postings about Python, and a number of statements of support. Thank you! Please, keep sending them. We need to make sure that it is clear that "Python" is Python across the entire EU.
I help run barrapunto.com, a Slasdhot clone in Spanish backed by a Spanish company. We have a Python topic that refers to the Python language. We lost some of our early content, but currently our first story on that topic is from October 2001:
FWIW, I am regularly contacted to be hired as a Python developer (notably by Luxembourg folks). Throughout job offers in computers, there is no ambiguity as to what Python means.
What would the ramifications be if the PSF loses the rights to the name "Python" in Europe? Would it force the language itself to be rebranded for all European usage?
I can imagine that at that point the company owning the Python trademark would be able to go after other companies offering Python services for trademark infringement, and various other legal threats related to it...
Well, the question itself is stupid not because something is obvious in the outcome, but because obviously nobody can predict the future. And using simple words is not hostile, at least using the term "stupid" in my previous comment had no hostility intended.
I excuse for any irritation it might have caused and hopefully I could remove now any of these.
I suspect the only reason PoBox/Veber are now filing a trademark is to pre-empt a challenge on the domain. They are just domain squatters who got hold of python.co.uk and now see it as investment -- possibly one of their last chances at surviving, seeing how they're rumoured to be £ 300k in debt.
Canonical is based in London UK. Ubuntu makes extensive use of python scripting (I believe Shuttleworth used Python for his original Thawte software). Perhaps they would be prepared to provide evidence statements if approached?
At least Aalto University in Finland uses Python as the entry level teaching language nowadays [1]. I don't know anyone from the CS department but I'll do my best to reach out to them about the matter.
Some universities and engineering schools in France are teaching Python or using Python in some classes. The one I attended (Télécom Bretagne) does. Here is, for instance, a course about Sage and Python: http://formations.telecom-bretagne.eu/fad/course/view.php?id...
The company I work for might be applicable to write a letter in support. What email address should I use for getting help in drafting such a letter, and convincing management to get on board?
The website mentions psf-trademarks@python.org in reference to completed letters, should I contact that email address for help in drafting a letter?
Would not Google search, Wikipedia and Stackoverflow statistic be of some worth to show what the dominant usage of the word python is in the realm of software?
waiting for LibreOffice to download so I can wack things together for you. I am a UK developer/student.
I'll be including:
- screencap of my github profile (4 or 5 projects written in python)
- 2 approaches from companies wanting to hire me (through LinkedIn) because I had
"Python" listed on my profile
- Academic references which use "Python" the programming language in a title or
abstract.
- evidence of my experience with Linux (i.e. that python is preinstalled in many
many distributions),
- evidence that I am writing the majority of my PhD code (I'll get you line
counts) in Python.
This makes me very very angry. If you have the address of the company or anything, I'd also like to write to them to tell them they're insane to try this - they're an embarrassment to the UK.
Do the owners of python.co.uk not have to prove the legitimacy of their right to the name as well? I'm fairly sure that trademark law works on the principle that you have to be seen to defend your trademark in order for it to be considered your intellectual property (it's why you often see silly stories in the news about big companies chasing after trivial businesses then settling quietly out of court). As the other company has let "their" trademark fester for 13 years, I can't see how they have any legitimate legal claim.
As long as you registered the trademark this first of all is your legitimacy - that's why you register it.
This registration has been opposed so I assume now PSF via their UK counsellor will add some evidence to the opposition. If the opposition is successful it can turn out that owners of pythong.co.uk will not be able to get the trademark registration into a successful status.
So right now, they don't need to defend anything, it's more or less that they are opposed. Which is why the PSF needs your help to find evidence and show how the name actually is and was used to finally show probably either that:
- the EU trademark belongs to PSF (or elseone PYTHON related)
- the name can not be trademarked at all in that class because it has its distinct, public meaning in internet/computing.
The argument works both ways: if the PSF cannot assert a trademark on the name "Python," the owners of the python.co.uk domain shouldn't be able to take ownership of the name either. Why are they trying to do it right now?
The owners of python.co.uk have waited 13 years to make a complaint about others using their trademark. And due to this, are arguably in a weak position to claim ownership of the trademark.
So my question is this; are the owners of python.co.uk also being challenged to prove they've used their trademark? Are the owners of python.co.uk being challenged to prove that they've tried to enforce control over the trademark over the 13 years leading up to this case?
> "All other WordPress-related businesses or projects can use the WordPress name and logo to refer to and explain their services, but they cannot use them as part of a product, project, service, domain, or company name and they cannot use them in any way that suggests an affiliation with or endorsement by the WordPress Foundation or the WordPress open source project. For example, a consulting company can describe its business as “123 Web Services, offering WordPress consulting for small businesses,” but cannot call its business “The WordPress Consulting Company.” Similarly, a business related to WordPress themes can describe itself as “XYZ Themes, the world’s best WordPress themes,” but cannot call itself “The WordPress Theme Portal.”
> Similarly, it’s OK to use the WordPress or WordCamp logo as part of a page that describes your products or services, but it is not OK to use it as part of your company or product logo or branding itself. Under no circumstances is it permitted to use WordPress or WordCamp as part of a top-level domain name."
The reason for this is quite simple, they've been seen to enforce their trademark so if there's ever any disputes, Wordpress are on strong legal ground. However python.co.uk owners have allowed the name -"their" trademark- to be borrowed and used globally. So it's now a grey issue as to whether the aforementioned still have a legal right to that trademark.
So if I understand trademark law, then the PSF should also be challenging python.co.uk to prove that they've made any effort to enforce their trademark before now. I hope for PSF's sake that I am right here because that would put them in a much stronger position to win this dispute than just proving the widespread use of the term under their context alone.
Surely at least some part of their stack is built using Python, so couldn't you tell them that they may not use the software if they are going to proceed with this?
That's not how the open-source movement works. You can't start excluding people based on usage you don't like. If you do that, you're explicitly not following open-source ideals.
Apache license, mozilla license and GPL has provisions that terminates the licence upon the initiation of particular lawsuits. The most common ones are Patent retaliation clauses. This is nothing strange, and has existed for a rather long time. It would not be a stretch to expand this to trademark lawsuits.
It's not at all - that means you're ceding many rights to the authors of the software. Suppose I want to use open source X from Company Y, and they had that provision. Then I find that Company Y is pirating my software, slandering, hacking our servers - if I sue them, I now lose my license?
Why would I build on something that lets the owner act against me with relative impunity (assuming the software is something critical)?
I considered that and I'll admit that I was being a bit lazy with my comment but I think it could be written in a reasonable way. Perhaps a license fee attached to any failed legal action. Or even limit to certain types of legal action.
We can't even be sure that Python-the-company is using Python-the software, so ...
Furthermore, I think the problem is not here, the PSF clearly made a mistake by not registering the name (it's not a matter of 'bad law'). If we apply your solution, then it would mean that a company which does not use Python can still ask to register a global trademark named on the term.
I'm going to ask my manager if I can write a letter on behalf of us, we're in the TeliaSonera family of companies.
But I also think you should hawk some merchandise. T-shirts with the snake, or the Python logo. This would even help your case if people around the world were wearing them or sending in photos wearing them.
We're a UK based company whose stack is almost completely built in Python - one official letter of support is winging its way to your lawyers as we speak.
Van Lindberg Chairman, Python Software Foundation
Edit: I have been asked what sort of statements would be helpful. I can't tell you exactly what to say - it needs to be your statement, but we need to make it clear that when someone says "Python" in relation to software, or a "Python server," or with "Python experience," they are referring to Python-the-language.
We also want people to testify to their understanding that Python is distributed by the Python Software Foundation.
These are not exactly the same, but this gives a flavor of some of the things that can be helpful:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zxn212k5r8mg1k7/WitnessStatement.p...
In case anyone wants to know, it is CTM Application No. 10848208 PYTHON & Device in the name of POBox Hosting
Edit 2: I have already received a book written in Spain, job postings about Python, and a number of statements of support. Thank you! Please, keep sending them. We need to make sure that it is clear that "Python" is Python across the entire EU.